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  4 0 Part of growing as a band is learning how to cope with adversity. The soundman thing is often one of those adversities. It's a little bit like the refs in an NBA basketball game. You never know what you will get or how they will call the game. Will the lightest touch be a foul? Will they let an elbow to the head go by? It's hard to know in advance. And that can be frustrating (I think it's why NBA players get so pissed about the refs a lot of the time). But as a player, you still need to try and find a way to perform as well you can, no matter what the ref is doing. During my time in Seattle, I've played mostly solo acoustic music. You wouldn't think that this would pose much of a problem from a soundman standpoint. But amplifying solo acoustic guitar well is actually pretty challenging (especially if the player uses a lot of different tunings and puts the capo on a lot, as I do). And to be honest, since most sound people do a lot more electric band shows, they typically don't have that much experience with amplified solo acoustic guitar (or much incentive to learn more about it). I had a really hard time with this for a number of years. Feedback. Bad piezo electric pick-up sproingy sound, you name it. It would really throw me off while I was performing. But what happened over time was two-fold. First, I became more experienced with/used to mediocre guitar sound in the monitors. I stopped expecting it to sound like my beautiful, unamplified guitar in my living room at home, where I practiced. So I was less distracted by it. Second, I bought a Baggs pre-amp direct box to replace the more complicated and hard to set-up pre-amp system I had before that. In an ideal setting, my old system probably was capable of a better sound than the Baggs. But in terms of yielding a consistently usable sound in a streamlined way, the Baggs was much better, because it was easier to set-up, and it also allowed me more control over my sound from the stage, so if the sound person just didn't have a clue about what to do (or didn't care), I wasn't quite so helpless. The end result was that I could spend more time thinking about playing the music and less time worrying about all the technology. You said in the comments of one of the other answers that you know you are a difficult/high maintenance band for a sound person, because you use a lot of inputs, etc. Have you thought about ways that you could make your set-up more stream-lined? Maybe you could bring your own 16 channel Mackie board to the club, plug a bunch of your stuff into that, and then just give the sound man a sub-mix? Maybe you can get a new box that allows you to combine a few different sound sources into one box. These solutions may not yield quite as good results as your existing set-up, but if they yield good enough results with much less stress, your band will be better off in the end, because the road is long between just starting out and getting successful enough that you can afford your own sound person. Particularly if you are touring, you're going to deal with all manner of sketchy situations that make anything you've dealt with in Seattle (where the quality of production at most clubs is actually quite high) look really great. You'll also be better prepared to play it events like SXSW and CMJ, which are all about overcome adverse circumstances to put on a great show (i.e., no soundcheck, quick changeovers, etc.). Jake London answered in Music Panel over 2 years ago | Report 7 comments by joshuarule, Jake London, and joshuarule… 0 0 Great answer. I am pretty thorough in how do our setup to minimize as much as possible. I have been toying with the idea of having my own mixer on stage and just send them some aux feeds. I just have enough equipment to deal with that I don't know if I want to go there quite yet. Plus I fear the difference of onstage sound to what the audience hears. As far as inputs it's pretty much as streamlined as we are going to get unless we start summing channels together. I don't feel 5 di's, 3 vox, and a guitar amp is too outrageous really...it's just most places are not used to it. I always go out of my way to talk with the sound guy before hand. I generally print out our input list. I do whatever I can to control our end of the sound. We even have played shows with our own sound man and even then we kinda get that "who do you think you are" attitude. I agree though with you Jake in that we are going to have to get better on our end...and I am going to have to get better with my communication with soundpeople unless I someday I can afford someone to run it. joshuarule commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 Man, 5 DIs is a lot of DIs if you aren't an all acoustic band or something like that. If a venue doesn't do a lot of this stuff (and what venue does except maybe the Tractor?), they probably won't even have that many DI boxes. Do you bring any of your own? Or maybe one of those rack units with 4-5 DI boxes built in? Is there any way to incorporate the mixer into a rack with some of the other gear, so you just roll it up on stage, give the sound guys some wires to plug into the snake, plug in the mics, mic the guitar amp, and call it good? I know it's a hassle and would cost some extra money to get the thing together, but it sure would save some hassles in the long run. And ultimately, that's what you want to do, make it as easy as possible for the sound person to get you set up and ready to for a sound check. As far as different onstage sound than what the audience hears, that's always going to happen as soon as you are putting most of your stuff through the P.A., rather than playing through amps on the stage. To my mind, the front of house sound, is out of your hands. You just need to hope the sound person does a decent job with that (or try to get someone you trust to listen and empower them to pass their thoughts along to the sound person). The stage sound, on the other hand, can really affect your performance. So I say do whatever you can to improve your ability to control it and make it what you need. Jake London commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 We bring our own di's We are synth/pop band. 3 synths (1 in stereo) each synth with a different member of the band & drum pads with the drummer. Yeah I could figure out a way to incorporate a line mixer into my setup. In fact there may be a few other solutions with my I/O setup I could try. If I were to do the onstage mixer approach then definitely the rack mount DI would make sense. Cause I would assume you are saying that I shouldn't just be giving them a stereo mix of everything...and still should be giving them the stems. I don't think I can make this happen immediately but definitely something to look towards in the future. Yes when the onstage sound is off...our feeling onstage is pretty dead and with our style that isn't good. We have been through a lot of learning in the last year of performing. It's getting better but still not as consistent as it needs to be. joshuarule commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 Your other option is to get keyboard amps for the synths/drum pads and just let the sound person mic the amps. Then you get the ability to control your sound on the stage and you give the sound man something familiar to deal with. It may actually end up sounding better too because there will actually be sound coming off the stage besides the guitar amp. There will be bleed between the different sounds coming off the stage. This bleed may actually help to create a more congealed sound mix. Will it be pristine as the synths coming through the board in stereo? No. But I think stereo is over-rated in a club gig context anyway. Besides, if amps are on a stage in different locations, they will naturally create a stereo image for the listener (even if the sources are in mono), because they exist in space along the stereo image field of the stage, and since the sound off the stage will also be helping to create the front of house sound in a club setting, it will contribute some dimensionality to the sound. Jake London commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 While I agree stereo doesn't make a big difference I still do believe that it does make enough of a difference to me personally (maybe to no one else though!). Of course this depends heavily on the club. Some don't even run in stereo. Amps have been a thought but definitely something I would look into after I tried other DI methods. First because of cost and second because of just about doubling the amount of gear to move. I tend to swing towards the idea of super clean and less mic bleed on stage We would also probably have to get a van. I'm not quite that serious yet! I appreciate your time in offering your possible solutions. It's definitely gotten me to think more about how to approach our setup. It's been some trial and error and probably will continue to be so for a while but we are having fun with it. If we change it up or find a solution I will post another message here. www.ilovecde.com joshuarule commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 For the three synths and electronic drum pads I'd suggest that you DO give them a stereo mix of everything (with your own 2 DIs) and politely ask that they use both DI channels @ equal volume even if they're not running in stereo (many clubs aren't, and it can often be counterproductive for the 90% of the audience that isn't standing in the exact center). Politely shrugging and say "that's cool, man - even if you're not running in stereo, we like having the extra headroom and a safety in case one channel cuts out" has worked for me in the past with the soundman visibly perking up when you "speak their language". Coming across as humble / easygoing / ever-so-slightly apologetic about your needs, while knowing what you're talking about (as opposed to "acting like you think you know more than the soundman", which even when true, is a surefire way to ensure an evening of "audio retribution" in your monitor mix later) works wonders. Don't be fake, but if the impression the sound guy has of your band is "what a bunch of nice, earnest guys", there's a fair-to-middling chance your mix will get a little extra love and attention that night. With the electronic drums and synths, the relative volumes of those are something that you'd probably want to be consistent from night-to-night, with the 'mix' pre-programmed into the actual presets of the synths and electronic kit. They aren't going to be as beholden to the acoustics of different venues as much as something like a guitar rig (where you might have to use different tone-knob settings in different venues, or decide to forego the reverb in a boomy-sounding venue) or an acoustic drum set. Synths and electronic drums -> your mixer -> main L/R outs of mixer -> your two DIs -> -> XLR outs of DIs go the the venue's snake -> 1/4" 'thru' outs of DIs go to two not-underpowered 15"-and-tweets keyboard amps - maybe even put these higher up on tripod speaker stands like "sidefills", or tilted back so they're not shooting at your knees. Not entirely unlike a traditional guitar/bass/drums band - which is the easiest for a sound guy to mix when their relative amp stage volumes are based on the acoustic stage volume of the drum kit - set the volume on the pair of keyboard amps relative to the stage volume the guitarist uses for his/her amp so that it already sounds like "a mix" onstage / in your practice space before you even add the house PA / stage monitors into the equation. Then all the sound human has to do is get the relative levels of the pre-mixed "electronics", the one miked guitar cab, and the vocal mics in the ballpark, and you're more or less golden. That way you'd only be depending on the house sound dude for making sure you can hear the vocals in the house monitor wedges, and balancing the electronics/guitar/vocals in the FOH mix - and with only 2 DI inputs (with your own DIs) and four mic inputs, you could play pretty much anywhere with a lot less hassle. Just a thought. You might have to upsize to a station wagon though. ;-) chrisrnps commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 Great comment chrisrnps. This is what I mean about learning to get it dialed in and simplified all at once. Jake London commented over 2 years ago | Report Enter your comment or ask a new question New comments are not being accepted at this time.

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  2 0 "How do we find a balance in this relationship?" Great question.....Why not ask the booking person about sound checks before the gig and get it in writing? When you arrive at the club, ask the sound person if they will be serving as stage manager for the evening and if you need to readjust the schedule for any reason. Refer to your written schedule you received from the booker and work with the sound person to get what you need. Always calm assertive energy, no reason to be confrontational or respond to someone else's bad attitude. We're all at the venue to make good music and transcend the limits of space and time into a blissful musical universe. Even though feedback blares through floor monitors, set times get bumped, and sound checks shortened, everybody has to keep a cool head and stay focused on ........ .........THE MUSIC! Vincent Gates answered in Music Panel over 2 years ago | Report Comment on this answer Enter your comment or ask a new question New comments are not being accepted at this time.

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  1 0 I can only speak for the Croc but i know that we have the same policies as the Comet in terms of the sound person showing up 30 minutes before the band. The sound staff at the Croc is pretty small but only because we have high standards for our employees. I feel like every person on the sound staff is not only great at their job but a quality person. That is super important as the sound person is often the venue representative that a band has the most contact with over the course of any given evening. Eli Anderson answered in Music Panel over 2 years ago | Report 2 comments by joshuarule and blahblahblah… 0 0 Thanks Eli. I agree with your statement. The Croc was probably the best place I have ever performed in terms of sound / stage help and maybe you are not the best to help to answer my question of how to start a good relationship with soundpeople at each show because of this. I know we are a "high maintenance" band. Because of our high input list we rely HEAVILY on the soundperson and PA. I know we are going a bit beyond what typical local bands are doing so it's important for me to communicate with the soundperson about what we are going for and need...but it usually just has us ending up sounding like we are assholes because we want more than 2 di's and some specific requests for levels. joshuarule commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 The Croc is definitely the best place I've played as far as respect/help from people running sound. No one beats Jim, but the current people are great. blahblahblah commented over 2 years ago | Report Enter your comment or ask a new question New comments are not being accepted at this time.

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  1 0 The best advice I can give you about this is be prepared. Be a fucking Boy Scout. The advice about streamlining your gear is spot on. Get a mixer and give me a stereo mix (mono is even better). Ask questions while booking the show. Know how many bands are playing and what the order is. The one thing you should always remember is that we are on a VERY tight schedule. We got four hours to get five bands in and still find time to get all these drunk assholes out of the bar. Know your set up, know how to explain it to me quickly and clearly, and MOVE YOUR SHIT! Any band should be able to set up in less than 20 min and tear it down in even less. Just be professional, tell me what you want with out any rockstar ego, and everything will be great. We'll all have a good time. The big thing is the fact that soundguys have to deal with hugely inflated egos everyday. If you present yourself as someone who is there to have fun and not as a wanna-be rockstar, you'll find everything will go much better. All that being said, most soundguys are just dicks. I really haven't figured out why yet myself. Cody Creel answered in Music Panel over 2 years ago | Report 1 comment by joshuarule… 0 0 Thanks Cody. We have always had our presets at consistent levels and have made minor tweaks along the way. I always write out exactly what we need with a stage layout. We bring our own di's. I do what I can to make it as easy as possible on the soundguy. I think I am going to give this stereo mix thing a try. Having control onstage of the levels is probably the best way for us to have more consistent levels. Whether I will bring on stage amps or not will depend on the logistics...but I think it's a good idea. It's hard not to get a bit aggravated when a soundguy looks at your input list and immediately starts giving you the attitude. I can usually settle things down eventually after they realize we have our shit together. joshuarule commented over 2 years ago | Report Enter your comment or ask a new question New comments are not being accepted at this time.

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  1 1 If that were to happen at the comet, I hope you would let me know. Our rule is that the sound person should be there at least a half hour before the bands. Sound people can be notoriously grumpy, I've noticed that in many clubs. They see the club as their home, and you are a guest, I suppose. But it's good to have some persepective.Some bands can be very high maintenance and give venue staff a lot of grief and venue workers can get very burnt out. I would just suggest to be as gracious and as understanding as possible, but if behaviour seeps into outright rudeness, and your sound is horrible, send off an e-mail to the booker. Feedback is always welcome! mammac answered in Music Panel over 2 years ago | Report 5 comments by blahblahblah, mammac, and mammac… 0 0 is that the truth or an easy way to get on a sound person/venues shit list. The Comet in my experience is one of the places this happens most frequently. Especially when you're playing on a weeknight. blahblahblah commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 I was being sincere. I rarely (if ever) get feedback from bands about this. If I did I could try and fix it. But, I guess I would just expect a certain amount of tardiness in the music scene. After all 9 out of 10 bands never load in on time. It's just the way things are, you might wanna just loosen up a bit.I have tried to get our staff on board with that philosophy as well. I recently fired a door person for being too hard on the bands around this very subject and have had to let go of a sound person for not treating bands respectfully.I have high standards for our staff being professional and helpful to the bands that play. I really want to know if these standards are not up to par. mammac commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 ! mammac commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 I believe there is a fear of not getting booked again if you give negative feedback to a venue. Especially being a no name band which 98% of us are. joshuarule commented over 2 years ago | Report 0 0 Well that's not the case at the comet. Especially since we pride ourselves on booking no name bands. mammac commented over 2 years ago | Report Enter your comment or ask a new question New comments are not being accepted at this time.

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  0 0 The soundman has a direct business relationship with the club, who directly pays him. The band is only indirectly involved in this interaction--the soundman gets paid a fix fee regardless what comes out of the speakers during the course of the evening. In addition, the soundman's "boss" is almost never there for soundcheck or even performances, so they're happily unaware of what's going on, and largely indifferent to the whining of spoiled musicians who show up late, play too loud and lie about their draw. In addition, the bulk of bands will play a given club only a few times, spaced months apart. Between the turnover of bands, soundmen and club ownership, a soundman can safely fuck people over for years without suffering repercussions. tiktok answered in Music Panel over 2 years ago | Report Comment on this answer Enter your comment or ask a new question New comments are not being accepted at this time.

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