Agreed, unless the speaker has learned English as a second language.

Exactly. Poor spelling and grammar are a huge turn off.

Embrace your elitism.

Yes, spelling and grammar, taught in elite public schools all over the country.

I'm just saying it's a turn off...

Good grammar and spelling = someone who reads = someone who thinks = hopefully smart. This is good.

Good grammar and spelling = Middle Class = financial stability = Sexy. Let the dumb fuck the poor.

Granny Smith, I grew up working class, and I've met plenty of professional, middle-class people whose writing is embarrassingly bad. I don't find it sexy, no matter how much money they make.

People who grow up poor can be very elegant thinkers and writers. Your stereotypes are offensive.

Also, financial stability has very little, if anything, to do with good grammar. lt may have something to do with certain jobs, but not all, and how well a person does that is not necessarily determined by their grasp of the language.

I remember an instance from my childhood where we once had to choose between toilet paper and food because we didn't find enough change in the couch for both. Growing up in two single-working-parent households trying to survive in California as a latchkey kid bouncing around from rental to rental definitely didn't allow me any 'privileges'. Don't tell me about being poor, I've had to fight for my education tooth and nail. To echo Irena: your assumption that poverty leads to a lack of academic prowess is indeed deeply offensive.

I don't know anything about being poor but I know plenty about being a bad speller. In defense of being uniformly dismissed as unsexy and undesirable I was accusing others of being elitist in the condemnation of those with bad spelling. Glad to see the poor are held is such high regard compared to those with learning disabilities.

Granny Smith, I can't speak for everyone on this thread, but I can explain myself. It doesn't bother me when someone makes the occasional spelling mistake or typo. It happens to everyone. What bothers me is when people show no regard for language and/or expressing themselves clearly. There is a point at which poor grammar starts to make it difficult to comprehend the intent of the writer, and I think that is what most of us are talking about. This is not a problem that you have.

Granny Smith, seek therapy or at least a more sympathetic thread for your self-pity, which is nearly as offensive as your stereotyping.

This question was tongue in cheek at best and so are the answers. Taking personal offensive to remarks made in a Questionland Forum is as ridiculous as it is sad.

My intent in the question was certainly not in reference to you, Granny Smith.

im' talkin boute thos ppl that r to hard too get what there sayin n i havta speech it out lud 2 underst ood it.

NGC1275; Having a collage education and a profession defines you as middle class. You worked hard to achieve that status so it is obviously important to you. If being poor was ideal, why did you work so hard to get out of it? What I was suggesting is that people who are turned off by bad spelling are the ones who associate language use and class. My statement was a rewording of basement dwellers comment. That is not how I feel, but my interpretation of what everyone else is saying.

Dan Williams; You are so smug and condescending but you don't even get when you are being mocked. Personal attacks like yours are the provenance of the weak minded. Next time try making a point and leave the insults out of it.

Whoa now, nothing about this has to do with income or class. C'mon I did disclaim this as a "tongue-in-cheek" question. As far as I can tell, no one was trying to offend anyone. Lighten up, this is all in good fun, okay?

That is why I did not respond to you directly. Your question was fine. It is the rush of answers from the fine liberal PC folks here at QL. People who I respect and admire who are so quick to dismiss those with language issues. I hoped to get people thinking about what it is that makes them so turned off by language use. It is interesting how sensitive people are to being called out as elitist.

Don't insult me and then tell me to lighten up. It is insensitive and condescending. Who are you to tell me not to be offended by this piling on of insults. Bad spellers have feelings too.

Since most people tend to date and marry within their own class anyway, what difference does it make if the middle- and upper-class contributors here find poor grammar un-sexy?

And I'm certain there are uneducated people who find educated people off-putting and un-sexy. Why don't you jump down their throats?

Here's another equation.

Good grammar and spelling = high level of education = middle class = common background and culture which lead to more successful relationships

Let like fuck like.

@keshmeshi: Congrats, you've explained a whole new meaning for the phrase, "Stupid is as stupid does." :)

Another (*sigh*) disclaimer: I'm talking about the content of your explanation, not as an adjective about you or what you said.

Keshmeshi: we are in complete agreement. The problem is the contributors here are in denial that this is, as you point out, a class issue. They have no problem dismissing people as unworthy based on something like language use but see themselves as free of prejudice. It is fine for them to judge others by their spelling but don't dare question them on those prejudices. After all, its just a big joke, right?

@ Granny Smith: You may want to brush up on your mocking skills. Perhaps your local "collage" offers an extension program.

@ Dan Williams: Zing! Is this supposed to disprove you are an elitist who uses insults in place of arguments?

Dan, Granny: You know what else is sexy? Civility!

Dear Granny,

I went to a ghetto high school where being white was in the extreme minority and over 70% of the students qualified for free lunches. We learned grammar and spelling there just fine, thank you.

Correct language usage has nothing to do with class, race, or economic status and everything to do with self respect--i.e. I don't want to be perceived as ignorant so I don't act as though I am. I don't assume, as you seem to do, that everyone with poor spelling and language skills has a learning disability or that good language skills are the mark of being middle class. I know many people with learning disabilities (like my sister) who have excellent language skills and many more who ostensibly should have good language skills (several PhDs I know) but elect to not use them. The latter category is the one with "unsexy" people.

Dear Griffen

I have severe learning disabilities and spell so poorly it is clinical. I found the wholesale dismissal of bad spellers to be offensive. I then made the argument that the prejudice is elitist. My statements are about the perceptions of those who are willing to put down someone for their language skills. You, for example, just suggested my bad spelling is the result of low self respect.

You are turning my argument around to make it a condemnation of those with bad language and not those who are prejudiced. I can do the same thing with your comment. Why do you suggest that being "non-white" makes learning grammar more of an accomplishment? Why the need to bring race into it? Why should non-whites be singled out as poor or problem learners?

Dear Granny,

You have a better command of spelling and grammar than you seem to believe that you do, or else an exceptionally good copyediting program. If it's the latter, please tell me what program you use--I know some folks in need of it.

Why do I write this? I can read what you wrote without wondering where all the vowels and spaces between words are hiding. Compare to this question: http://questionland.com/questions/12703-dui-15-just-got-out-of-a-3month-rehab-do-i-got-a-chance-on-getting-it-dropped

I use spell check. It doesn't always work for me. Dan just humiliated me for not catching a homonym. All the talk of ill speaking PhDs and terrible language usage in posts doesn't soften the blow of people I respect and admire dismissing bad spelling as unsexy. I understand what the original question was about. I request that people take a moment and consider the impact of making such broad statements of distaste for groups of people.

There are two problems l see with this current discussion. One, l don't see anyone who has stated that poor grammar or spelling makes one 'unworthy'. ln order to continue having a reasonable argument and perspective, putting words like that in others' mouths isn't helpful.

Two, you say you have spelling issues, and that you use spell check. Other than the college misspelling, this seems to work quite well for you, and as Griffin pointed out, where your original statement was misunderstood to be your personal opinion, you have done a good job of clarifying that as your interpretation of others' statements, which makes your perspective much easier to understand.

And herein lies the point: You have been able to get your ideas across fairly well; whatever issues you do have seem to be solved either with spell check or a personal attention to detail that makes you easier to understand. Therefore, you don't fall in the group of people l think most here are discussing. Both Griffin's and nseattlite's examples of poor grammar reflect on a complete and utter inability to express oneself in a cohesive manner. Do you see the difference, and why people are *not*, in fact, dismissing everyone with poor language skills? They're not talking about you - they're talking about people who don't make any fucking sense whatsoever, yet still expect the world to know what they're saying. Big difference there, and l don't think anyone is faulting those who simply have disabilities that get in the way.

Good points freikja. Most of my comments have been attempts to make my point about the casualness that folks dismiss a group of people and the potentially elitist nature of that prejudice. I would have let it go way back there if my position had not been so misunderstood and if such an attempt had not been made to cast me as the intolerant one. In an attempt to clarify my position it was necessary to distill my reaction down to its most basic point. That has resulted in too much being said about it. Even if the comments were not directed at me, it still is hard to read such broad condemnation. It is like saying that you don't hate all the blacks, just the lazy and stupid ones. It is still offensive.

"Most of my comments have been attempts to make my point about the casualness that folks dismiss a group of people and the potentially elitist nature of that prejudice. "

Ahhh, the key word here is 'potentially'. Your clarification to the effect that you didn't personally interpret things that way was helpful, but then you told everyone right off the bat that your statement was pointing out their elitism. You chose to assume that's what it was, and gave no one the chance to clarify *themselves* before you applied that label to them, so it goes both ways now, doesn't it?

That said, l don't think it's comparable to a comment about blacks or what type of blacks are problematic. Here's the thing - we are taught how to speak and write from the VERY GET GO (caps for emphasis, not volume). Now if someone has a disability, they are exempted from the expectation that their English education has made some impact. This also goes for the ESL folks. But beyond these two general groups, if people are then still having issues with speaking in a way that conveys the message they're trying to send, it is easier to assume the problem has less to do with culture or biology/neurology than it does a simple lack of effort on the speaker's part. This applies to any other school subject - barring disabilities (or, say, lack of extra effort on the part of the educators) if you have demonstrated adequate intelligence and understanding of the material, yet fail to apply it when you have the ability to do so, then why is that? Often, it IS because people are lazy or bored, because people who want to learn and improve will take steps to make that happen. That's not deliberately biased, prejudiced, or offensive, it's just the way the world is sometimes.

That certainly doesn't mean anyone or everyone here was saying that they can't tolerate people who struggle with language in their everyday life. l know plenty of people who can't spell worth a shit but do just fine articulating themselves nonetheless. And they take the time to use spellcheck so that consistent communication remains.

And l'm sorry, but in this day of LOLspeak, that is deliberately lazy and uninspired, and anyone who insists on misspelling a word they know is NOT spelled that way is going to be perceived in exactly that manner. This is their choice. Clearly, you're willing to work to avoid that, and have succeeded, so l'm still not sure why this feels like such a personal issue for you. With all due respect.

Let me point out, this is a question of sexiness. I find farting, nosehairs, pimples, exposed butt cracks, blonde curly hair (on a man), back fat, and skinny legs unsexy. And my husband has several of those things (plus horrible grammar/spelling, despite being an amazingly creative writer), but I look past them to the sexy bits and find him to be incredibly sexy overall.

Everyone has unsexiness to them; and everyone has sexy bits. And non-sexy stuff does not make people unworthy or not sexy as a whole.

Determining if something "sexy" is asking people to pass judgement. And worthiness is very rarely directly related to sexiness. Unless you are judging the worthiness of someone's career in the sex industry. And they're not giving p0rn stars grammar tests & hosting str!pper spelling bees last time I checked.

"Let me point out, this is a question of sexiness."

Thanks for this reminder. l know a guy who often has trouble with the whole 'your/you're' type of punctuation. But goddamn, he's pretty sexy regardless of that, and when we talk in person, what he has to say is far more important than whether or not he were able to say it perfectly if he were to put it in writing.
Does that mean l don't still find good grammar and spelling sexy? No, it will always be a turn on - but it's certainly not the end-all, be-all either.

I wish I could give two shrooms!

D'aww, thanks. I appreciate the sentiment, regardless.

Besides, I have the only thing better than a shroom - A sexy writer husband!

While I was reading the second paragraph, I was expecting the story to end with "Reader, I married him," and I was right!

Your answer made me smile!

Cagey, you aren't one of the posters I'm referring to!

Cagey, I've yet to need to put your writing through a l33t-to-English or txt-to-English filter, so I think that you're OK.

LOLschprecken! OMG, ROFLMAO. Fer reals. ;)