That is not illegal in California.

Okay, granted I can't find the intersection section of California's traffic laws, but their driver's guide says: "Do not enter the intersection if you can not get completely across before the light turns red. If you block the intersection, you can be cited" (here, p.35: http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl600.pdf)

I suppose that means you can enter and wait in the intersection, but if there's a line of cars a mile long coming and you know you're going to have to make the turn after the light changes, that would seem to be illegal.

Though, now that you mention it, maybe the difference is only in the driver's manual and not the actual law. Either way, I still contend this incidious belief comes from down south!

I'm from CA, and believe me, it doesn't come from there. WA drivers are, hands down, the worst I've ever seen.

The law you cited is for preventing gridlock. That is, if there's a backup of cars preventing you from getting through the intersection, then you can't enter. It says nothing about entering an intersection under normal circumstances to turn left, and then waiting out in the middle of the intersection until it's safe to turn.

In fact, if even your front license plate frame is over the stop line, then you're entitled to complete your turn before cross traffic proceeds through the intersection when the light changes.

I really wonder what people consider bad driving. When some people say it, they mean that bad drivers don't follow the driving laws, drive too fast, and do unsafe things like pass on the right. When other people say it, they mean exactly the opposite; they see driving as a skill and the law as a guideline. To the second kind of person, the kind of risky maneuvers they do wouldn't be unsafe if everyone on the road had their skills, and the people obeying the speed limit and stopping completely at stop signs are being bad drivers by blocking the flow of traffic.

I used to think the second kind of people were just assholes, but I've recently been to a few places where that's the normal attitude. If you were to try to drive "safely", by American standards, in Vietnam, you would probably cause dozens of accidents.

I generally mean not following laws. For example, WA drivers are notorious for driving slow in the fast lane, which is a violation of the law. They are also notorious for not properly using turn signals, another clear violation of the law. Even the WA quirk of nobody knowing who has the right-of-way at a stop sign is a violation of the law.

That said, I don't think driving 65 in a 60 is bad driving. Driving with the flow of traffic is always the safest speed. And, passing on the right, while definitely unsafe, is sometimes necessary because, as I mentioned, WA drivers stubbornly go slow in the fast lane.

Californians are, in general, INFINITELY better drivers than Washingtonians. Californians tend to know where they're going and how to get there, and they suffer from none of this common misconception that "politeness" means the same thing as "vagueness". A Californian might cut across six lanes of freeway to get to an exit, but that's because he comes from a place where everybody on the freeway is going the same speed, and it's a doable maneuver. Why Washingtonians cut across lanes on the freeway has never been established; no amount of study can determine even the hint of any reasoning for their actions. They change lanes because they're bored, or because they don't know where they are, or because the car in front of them is interfering with their natural tendency to swing slowly but erratically between 85 and 45 MPH. Washington drivers don't go when the light is green, and they don't stop when the light is red. The only time a Washington driver uses his turn signals is when he's signaling the opposite of his intended turn. Washington drivers frequently come to complete stops in the middle of streets for no reason; they frequently turn left from the right lane and vice-versa; they never use their horns for ANYTHING, even warnings; they go out of turn at stop signs; they ride their brakes; they weave from side to side and make false starts into neighboring lanes; they drive in the bike lane. Washington drivers are TERRIBLE.

You left out driving slowly in the left lane to try to block speeders. Washington drivers aren't polite so much as they're prigs.

Fnarf, I literally have never 'liked' anything that has ever been posted on Questionland more than your comment above. Ever. I wish I could give you a quadruple thumbs-up.

People here have an obsession with honking when feeling antsy too, which of course leads to a shitload of honking because everyone is ALWAYS hurriedly taking their time.