Ask Seattle A Question
Questions are no longer being accepted in this category. You can read previous questions and answers below.
Questionland University
Category_default

Welcome to Questionland University! We've assembled an eclectic cabal of university professors (and one grad student) to answer your random, esoteric questions. Always wondered about  a certain passage in The Odyssey? Can you stump the math guy...

Answers
  • What's the best way to understand imaginary numbers?
    4580_567629054715_5404868_33102758_6691665_n_small

    Hey Lee-

    Well, first you should probably ask yourself: What is a number? I just think of 'numbers' as a set of things that one can play with, usually with addition, multiplication, exponentiation, etc. Maybe we are talking about prime numbers, maybe we are talking about square numbers, maybe we are talking about p-adic numbers. In any case, 'number' is a quite general word that can be applied in many different contexts. Certainly numbers are always elements of some set, though this doesn't really say very much.

    As for the numbers you know and love, including 'i', I like to think of 'creating' numbers successively, each one arising as the solution to some problem. If I know '1', and I know how to add, then I am ensured the 'existence' of a number called '1+1', which I just randomly choose to write as '2'.

    Suppose you now know what the positive whole numbers are (which, as an adult human being, you probably do): 1, 2, 3, and so on. Well, a natural question might be:

    What can I add to a number that won't change the number? Here you will be forced to 'create' 0, as the number that solves this problem (since 0 + 1 = 1).

    You could continue asking questions:

    What can I add to a number to get 0? (Forces you to 'create' negative numbers.)

    What can I multiply a number by to get 1? (When you further create all the numbers you would get by combining these via addition and multiplication, you would now have created all fractions, or so-called 'rational numbers')

    What can I multiply by itself to get, say, 2? (Ok, here you have to first convince yourself that none of the fractions you already created will work. This requires a proof, though it is not that hard. Try it! This type of question will force the creation of what are called 'algebraic' numbers-- all those that arise as roots of polynomials with integer coefficients, including the square root of 2.)

    At this point, if you followed the above step, (that is, creating all roots of polynomials with integer coefficients), you must have already created 'i'. Namely, 'i' is the unique number whose square is -1. This is genuinely how I think of 'i': It fits in with all the things you already created, so you can add it (e.g. 1 + i), multiply it (e.g. 3*i), or divide it by anything. When you throw in all of this stuff you have now created, you have the 'complex numbers' (Ok, I just lied. You actually only have the dense set in the complex numbers with algebraic coefficients. In order to get all the complex numbers you would have to go back a bit and fill in some missing things in the real numbers. What I mean is, in the construction above, we have not yet created ALL the numbers between, say, 3 and 4. This is a subtle and trippy point that is a lot of fun to think about. Suffice it to say, pi is not algebraic. More mind-blowingly, the algebraic numbers are countable, while the reals are not!)

    Once you get your feet wet a bit with complex numbers, deriving the basic laws of how addition, multiplication, and exponentiation work, chances are you will begin to feel more comfortable with 'i'. So, the answer to your question is yes, it definitely begins to become intuitive. To me, 'i' has exactly the same kind of existence as the square root of 2, or 3/5, or one billion.

    One more thing: it can be helpful to think of the complex numbers as a plane (infinite sheet of paper), where the horizontal axis corresponds to 'real part' and the vertical axis corresponds to 'imaginary part'. You can see pictures of what I mean on wikipedia or elsewhere. Having a visual picture in mind might help you. Here is a nice video of a special class of transformations in the complex plane, which I point out just cause I think it's awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX3VmDgiFnY

    So, you might be bothered by all this business of 'creating' numbers. If so, I'm afraid I don't know what to tell you. If you want to learn some math, you had better get used to that bewildering feeling.

    I'm afraid I also can't quite tell what you are referring to in the last question. What does '[i]' signify?

    Hope this helps-
    Jonah

  • Somali pirates, can they be eradicated?
    Stroup_small

    Pompey managed to clear the Mediterranean of Cilician pirates (about 1300 separate pirate vessels) in about three months. I say we take a page from his book.

  • Is there a way to type equations inline (online would be nice too)?
    4580_567629054715_5404868_33102758_6691665_n_small

    Okay, so I have to admit that I am one of those math students that has very little (slash no) tech savviness. On the other hand, I am also very interested in being a good questionland contributor, so lucky for you I asked my smart-ass officemate, Brent Bejot (who is doing his PhD in mathematical computer science) about your problem. Here is the gist of what he relayed to me:

    There isn't a good general solution to this problem, other than the programs you've already mentioned.

    However, there is one way to use TeX with a program called "TeX the World", a javascript program, which can run in Greasemonkey (an add-on to firefox). (Find it here: http://thewe.net/tex/)

    This program allows you to insert TeX symbols into text, and will automatically generate the correct images. I've used it with success on facebook in e-mail messages.

    Apparently you won't be able to generate the images you want without leaving Word. BUT if you are tech savvy enough, you could create a webpage with a single editable field, wherein the math symbols would automatically be converted. This could be saved and converted to a .doc. I quote: "But that is some crazy ass shit." Meaning Brent thinks it is unusual to go to such lengths, and also I really don't understand that so much.

    So, Jim, I did my best. Hope it helps!

    -Jonah

  • What's the significance of the line "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof"? What does it MEAN?
    Stroup_small

    Ever since ancient times, we have recognized that felines do not like tin, whether in the shape of roofs or other items of furniture.

    No, no. The line is famous, of course, because it is the title of a Williams' play (and a very good one), in which one of the characters is "Maggie the Cat." But the line means "skittish" or "jumpy," which is how you might imagine a cat being should one suddenly find one on a hot metal roof.

    The phrase "nervous as a cat in a roomful of rocking chairs" works similarly (That's always annoyed me. If there is no one there but a cat—and indeed no one but a cat is indicated!—there is little worry. The cat is probably asleep. Or maybe it's a Manx. There are myriad possibilities here), but may also indicate paranoia.

    Basically, it's a simple "As _______ as a ________," with the first blank = some adjective and the second = some descriptive situation in which an individual or thing, set in a specific situation, is intended to illustrate that adjective. What we have in "cat on a hot tin roof" is merely the descriptive situation, with "as jumpy as a" elided.

  • Why was Judas punished?
    Gogogophers_small

    Plot device. God thought he'd blow the big Jesus caper by speaking out before it was time. But Judas was a crackerjack with the cards and always kept his lip shut tight. God's a paranoid sort, easy to sweat, none too patient, and barely minds his p's and q's. In his breath, the sweet-putrid smell of heavily spiced foods, aged carcasses and cheap wine. And he always wore too much cologne.

    It was a Sunday when it happened, by happenstance.

  • Turbot in Ancient Rome?
    Stroup_small

    Turbot was a pretty common fish but yes, you are remembering Juvenal, Satire 4, which is pretty hilarious. In Latin, at least. You know, for a satire.

    Certainly the Imperial household enjoyed a great deal of seafood (a luxury item), and it's not unlikely, I imagine, that a truly fantastic catch might end up as a gift—intended to curry favors—to the House. I've never looked into it, but can't think of any refs to such beyond Juv. Sat. 4; I can't imagine it was ever the "fashion" (though I'll check into this later, and if I'm wrong, I'll come back and update!).

  • Aristophanes and Plato
    Stroup_small

    Yes, that is the *Symposion*.

    The story Aristophanes tells is not that humans were beasts with two backs, but that they were beasts with two fronts: some were all male ("children of the sun"), some all female ("children of the moon"), and some half and half ("children of the earth). So they were split up into two, and that's why people try to find their other: some men seek men, some women seek women, and some cross the fence and seek the other sort.

    The story is told very attractively in *Hedwig*:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YO9FpWX57E&feature=related

    Although I'd rather like to believe that this very "modern" sort of story was intended to be expressive of serious Platonic philosophy, my present opinion is that it was mainly intended to produce a thoughtful chuckle. Certainly adult homosexuality, in the ways that we understand it presently, was not fully or even partially accepted as a norm in ancient Athens. And yet I do wonder whether this hints at some sort of Platonic sensitivity toward same-sex relationships.

    I mean, of course there is a Platonic sensitivity toward, and acceptance of, certain sorts of same-sex relationships (male, aristocratic, strictly socially limited): what I wonder is whether this charming tale, put in the mouth of the most famously humorous of Athens' poets, might not point to a deeper sensitivity toward the ideas of an equality of affection.

    I honestly don't know. If so, it would have been fairly radical.

  • Is there any truth to the concept of left/right brained people?
    Adrienne_2009_small

    There is truth to this concept, although this particular illusion does not illuminate it! There is a great deal of common structure to the processing pathways in the brain, but there is also a lot of individual variability. The "left brain/right brain" division is something of a simplification, but there is a lot of division of labor between different brain areas and certain strategies of information processing use these areas differently. These strategic patterns also differ, on average, between the genders. One of the most compelling discussions I have ever heard about the "left brain/right brain" dichotomy comes from Jill Bolte Taylor, a neuroanatomist who suffered a massive stroke and in a TED talk describes very movingly her experience of losing the capacities of half of her brain.

    http://blog.ted.com/2008/03/12/jill_bolte_tayl/

    What you are seeing in the illusion above, though, is an effect called "perceptual bistability". The image has ambiguous motion information that can be decoded in two different ways, similar to the famous "vase/faces in profile" image. Personally I see her rotating in one way, then another, then flipping back again. I don't know what causes one's bias to interpret the motion as turning in one way or the other but I strongly doubt it is correlated with the patterns that enter the left/right brain distinctions.

  • Contemporary Translations of Classics - Favorites and Recommendations
    Stroup_small

    For the Homeric epics (*Iliad* and *Odyssey*), I recommend Rodney Merrill's translations. The man knows Greek very well (I have read with him), and is an excellent poet.

    In re dramatic works, I find the Hackett series quite good (search "Hackett Publishing" and this will get you on the trail). The Chicago collection of Greek tragedies is old-fashioned but just fine. Jeffrey Henderson's translations of Aristophanes are top notch.

    Let me think about satire and other poetry. Translations are very difficult to get just right, but I hope this gives you a start.

Questions
Recent Comments
  • Comment on Geni's answer…
    Lookalikes_small

    The rest of the country might be pretty laissez-faire about a few sunk boats, but I strongly suspect the practice would make it far more difficult to find crew.

    "No, YOU volunteer to be a pirate!"
    "No, YOU!"

  • Comment on Geni's answer…
    Sexy_female_nurse_grieger_by_obeliskgirljohanny_small

    In this sort of situation, I'm not convinced that a few hundred dead people would be enough to make the practice nonviable. As emily, Fnarf and Basil said, pirating supports the entire country. What are the deaths of 500 people in a country of 9 million? What are the deaths of 1000 people?

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Davidclose2_small

    Thanks, Kitts!

  • Comment on NGC1275's answer…
    Bauhaus_small

    And align the equal signs...always.

  • Comment on Mahtli69's answer…
    Photo_on_2012-01-03_at_17

    ideally I would say that you need a program like mathematica or derive or something like that. I don't know if you'd want to spend the money or if it would serve your purposes correctly though.

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Happyfoxsq_small

    I second the MA suggestion. I wasn't sure whether I wanted back into academia, and my GPA, though from a good school, was in the low 3.0s and I didn't have a clear topic, and half my undergrad profs didn't remember me anyway. My GREs were good, though. So I applied to a bunch of terminal MA programs in my general field, got into some, went to the one that offered me the most financial aid (some schools at least have tuition breaks, especially public schools). In the process I got a much better idea of what a PhD program would be like, figured out exactly what field I wanted to be in and took some of the prereqs, developed a better idea of what I might want to do my dissertation in, and most importantly, made the sort of connections with my MA advisors that allowed me to know which PhD programs to apply to and how to apply. As a result, I got into both my top choice and my reach school (the other three places I applied rejected me, but who cares).

    I would add to the above advice: apply fairly widely. Don't just apply to U of T. Whether you get into a program depends on so many factors (your qualifications, whether there's a prof there who is interested in your area, whether said prof has pull in the department that year and is "entitled" to more students, who else applied that year, who else has finished their dissertation that year, how the department is funded). It is complex enough to be almost random. So cast a wide net, just in case it's a bad year for U of T, but a good year for some other school you could also see yourself at.

    And hey, good luck!

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Gold-head_small

    My dad used the expressions "jumpy as a cat on a hot tin roof", "nervous as a cat in a roomful of rocking chairs", "colder than a witch's tit in a brass bra" (cleaned up to "than spit on a brass doorknob" in polite company), and his piece de resistance, "shakier than a dog shitting peach pits". You're welcome.

  • Comment on Jonah's answer…
    07_06_27_007_small

    OK. First: thanks for understanding my question and not just suggesting back to me that which I was trying to avoid!

    Second: Wow! TeX the world is exactly what I am talking about; that is awesome. To bad it only works online - not the ideal place for creating content or designing pages. If some genius can do that with javascript I can't understand why it can't be brought to the desktop (by someone more clever about programing than me).

    Brent might want work some of the crazy out of that shit and start up his own product.

    Thanks again.

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Avatar_default

    Thanks you for the post.
    _________________
    http://moviesonlinefree.biz

  • Comment on Jonah's answer…
    Stroup_small

    "I like your idea! [...] though [...] your goal is hopeless."

    Sounds like many comments I've written on student papers.

    And dissertations (I joke! I joke about the dissertation part!).

  • Comment on Geni's answer…
    Stroup_small

    Ok. I know there is archaeological evidence pointing to child sacrifice in pre-Columbian cultures (but this does not focus on female "virgins" in any way I can tell).

    In the Hebrew Bible, we have mention of "other people" killing their children, but this may well be part and parcel of the ways one slanders the "other," which is to say: by imputing them cultural practices that a cultural majority would recognize as utterly abhorrent. In other words, as we might call someone a "motherfucker," we don't *really mean* that he fucks his mother, right? We mean "You asshole" (which also doesn't mean we think he's a literal asshole, right?).

    Another example is the Blood Libel, in which Christians accused Jews of killing children and using their blood for the Passover matzoh. What could be worse? NOTHING. So that's what you use to accuse your enemies of doing, when you want to suggest they are subhuman.

    There is some archy evidence of child sacrifice from Carthage, and some literary evidence, but personally I am not entirely sold on either. The archy evidence is more compelling, but I'm on the fence. Could be.

    In no case have I seen any emphasis on female virginity (Isaac, remember, was a young man—and he wasn't killed). Maybe something about a newborn or young child offered up... could be. But in any case I think, and suspect, it was rare in the extreme and most of our accounts of such come from outside cultures trying to attack an enemy by accusing them of the worst one could imagine.

  • Comment on Mahtli69's answer…
    07_06_27_007_small

    Right. This is what is driving me mad. I'm typing away and then Insert menu> Math Type or Equation Editor > scroll down> end up in separate window > mousing around to find the sqrt symbol and then ending up with an object in my word document.

    I would like to just type side c = sqrt(a^2+b^2) and have a proper equation appear.

  • Comment on Geni's answer…
    Lookalikes_small

    I always thought that was a hallmark of some South American and Micronesian cultures - or are those popular myths as well? I wasn't referring to the Romans, certainly.

  • Comment on Geni's answer…
    Stroup_small

    Greco-Roman cultures never fetishized (or indeed promoted or tolerated in any way) the sacrifice of a "virgin" or any other human. Remember that for Rome, this would not have counted as a sacrifice, but rather a death penalty exacted upon a child. Sacrifice means that you are making something sacred. We have some famous "foiled" child sacrifices in classical mythology, but only one achieved one (that of Agamemnon and Iphigenia).

    I might be forgetting things, of course. I wonder what you have in mind.

    What cultures are these?

  • Comment on Joshua Probert's answer…
    Stroup_small

    Acts 15:28 is interesting, I agree.

    But we may slightly disagree on what the Greek actually says. The first three ("animal sacrifices made to an image," "blood," and "strangled" [i.e., improperly slaughtered] animals) refer solely to certain Judaic food practices—kashrut. There is nothing here about idol worship: these three speak only to Jewish food practices, which were very difficult for Greeks and Romans to bring into their world view.

    The passage says absolutely nothing about idolatry, and indeed early Christianity, with its depictions of a idol (Jesus), is wholly out of step with Judaism and wholly *in* step with the current Greco-Roman religions of the time.

    The final element is, in Greek, *porneia*. This is a thorny word: it is built off of *pornê*, a word which, in Greek, is used to indicate a low-level hooker; "whore" (a low class prostitute) is perhaps the best translation.

    Exactly what *porneia* meant to the earliest church writers, then, is a bit unclear, and has been interpreted in numerous ways (from "prostitution" to "sexual immorality of any sort") and expanded and contracted in just as many.

    If we simply take *porneia* as "sexual immorality according to Jewish Law," then that's one thing: there are loads of prohibited sexual relations in the Torah.

    What is not in the Torah, however, is any prohibition of homosexual love or marriage. Of the very many prohibited sexual relations in the Torah, male homosexual sex appears only twice.

    Nowhere—NOWHERE—in the Law are homosexual love, or homosexual unions, or homosexual marriage prohibited.

    Nowhere—NOWHERE—in the Torah are female homosexual relations ever referred to in the least.

    If the early Christian writers sought to expand Toraic injunctions to include as much (Paul surely did; we don't see this much elsewhere), then that was an entirely Christian invention.

    And finally, the end of this passage (Acts 15:29): "avoiding such, is good."

    Hardly a condemnation, is it? It reads more like writings from the splinter Jewish cult (I use the term in the old fashioned way, with no pejoration intended) trying to make their new thing more palatable—easier—to non-Jews trying to figure out what it's all about. It's Cliff's Notes. It's "Christianity for Dummies."

    It's a BRILLIANT plan to gain converts: "You find the food issues weird? We'll make it simple. You are troubled by the sexual prohibitions? Don't be sleazy. Sign here."

    Getting rid of circumcision was also a big winner.

    The Peter thing is just sort of funny, because of course very Many Jews at that time had no real problem upholding most of the mitzvot (the Temple destruction meant that some of these could no longer be upheld perforce). This letter was not written for Jews at all, but for people who knew very little of Judaism, but perhaps saw some interest in a new cult that offered something they sorely sought at that time: a way out, little change required, we don't like this old stuff either, just believe in this simple, user-friendly new formula, and that's it.

    Again, a brilliant formula.

    I am not deriding Christian belief in any way. One's belief in one god, or three, or none, or a multitude, or maybe you aren't sure—these are all valid and valuable social positions. Jews didn't ask for belief so much as practice (belief may come, it may fail: but ACT this way: your actions are your foundation). Christians realized that practice is tough, and belief is comforting (you may not always be able to ACT this way, but your BELIEF is your foundation).

    These are all valid ways to seek an ethical life. An ethical life, I should hope, is the goal of any religious, and indeed any non-religious, person on this planet.

  • Comment on adrienne's answer…
    Adrienne_2009_small

    I verified that this is indeed the way that physicists think about imaginary numbers by repeating this question to David Gross, Nobel Prize winner for string theory. He simply did a hand gesture of a 90 degree rotation.

  • Comment on adrienne's answer…
    Adrienne_2009_small

    I wonder if it would be worth your while trying some internship or research experiences while you are in college. This would give you a chance to see if, say, genetics or bioengineering is something you could imagine yourself doing long-term. Sounds like exploring beyond coursework could help you discover something that, while it may not be a passion, could at least lead you to a productive career.

  • Comment on NGC1275's answer…
    Nyan-cat-ftw-video2463_small

    I'm not sure if it would solve all of your problems, but you could download a hotkey program and assign keyboard shortcuts. For instance, you could set option+2 to be a superscript 2, option+3 to be a superscript 3, and so on.

    Roots and huge fractions though would be a problem.

  • Comment on NGC1275's answer…
    07_06_27_007_small

    I've used a few exam programs like exam view and CPS but they are a layout nightmare. I need to work in a word processor or presentation program.

    I'd like to type a^2+b^2=C^2 and have the exponents displayed as superscript, ie- actually look right - without actually leaving the page layout program or presentation program.

  • Comment on Fnarf's answer…
    Medium_2868373187_b2c11c89cf_o_small

    Just because those things are not likely to happen, doesn't mean that isn't the solution.

  • Comment on adrienne's answer…
    Horse_ass2_small

    I guess it is.

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Stroup_small

    "if Jowett's translation had jived better with yours, it would've been a challenge to your "praxis over doxis" explanation"

    If Jowett's translation had been correct, neither I nor anyone else would make a orthopraxy / orthodoxy argument. It's not like it's an argument we secretly like, because it's so obscure and difficult to grasp (and teach), so we are manipulating the ancient texts in order to promote it. It's that that's what the freaking ancient texts seem to indicate, and it's weird, but if we move away from a Christian- (and here it's more "Christian" than the Judeo- bit) inspired naturalization and prioritization of belief... well, then we just don't really see quite that—certainly not the emphasis on it—in antiquity.

    But it's this Christian-influenced thinking that must have led Jowett to render "nomizein" as "believe in the existence of." It goes entirely against the Greek, but jibes perfectly with a late 19th c Christian-influenced worldview. To Jowett, it didn't likely matter that nomizein sort of *never* means that, and is never used that way grammatically. What mattered (I am hypothesizing) is that he *knew* this was a charge of atheism, and atheism is about "not believing" in the gods, so that's what this word must mean here.

    Translations (and much theoretical scholarship, for that matter) often tell us a great deal about the translators (and their times). It's a blasted difficult task to render a really sharp translation, however, and I don't want to bully old Jowett.

    Anyway, all of this stuff—orthopraxy v orthodoxy— is *really* hard to explain, and even hard to understand (I am speaking personally). I'm actually totally used to the utter disbelief and argumentation I've received here (I sometimes get it from my students, a few of whom apparently lose all confidence in my authority when I challenge their worldview). But once you can kind of get it, once you can wrap your head around how this could be possible (and then start recognizing a lot of modern orthopraxy, and how strange it is that orthodoxy, or "proper belief" has been so naturalized in modern times), it explains a lot.

    So anyway. I don't make things up, I don't argue things just to be churlish, and I certainly don't argue things I cannot fully argue, in the original, and with enough years of research and piles of hardcore scholarship to make anyone ... well, lose interest before I am done explaining it. My specialty is language—words, how they are used, wordplay, subtle intertextual references, etc.—and so I sure as hell never make an argument about word usage unless I've spent a great deal of time researching it (not that you claimed as much, but when people question the "belief" thing, I'm always like "What? Do you think I just made that up for fun?").

    "To me that says that it's not an issue of belief or non-belief, but rather something that's not really considered at all. "

    Yes. As almost incomprehensible as this may sound to a modern reader—one inevitably saturated by "believer / infidel / go to heaven / to go hell" rhetoric, I would agree exactly with how you formulated this.

    And it is *always* a pleasure to bust out the Plato!

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Mike_hall_08_small

    Thanks for the translation and explanation! That sort of depth of understanding of Greek is just beyond me.

    "And yet it is good to remember that references to the gods are not tantamount to what we would consider *belief* in the *existence* of gods."

    That's what I was getting at with my first comment. Socrates saw no apparent contradiction in finding explanations for things that didn't rely on the divine and yet invoking the divine on a casual basis amidst the search for those explanations. To me that says that it's not an issue of belief or non-belief, but rather something that's not really considered at all. As you said, it's just what people do.

    "Meletos' charge was trumped up and ridiculous anyway."

    Oh, no doubt. But when looking back you can still learn something from a trumped up charge, the same way that Suetonius' faithful reproductions of tabloid-style sensationalism tells us something about ideas that were at least in commerce, if not necessarily widely accepted or even plausible. Just because a statement isn't true doesn't mean it can't teach us about the people who discuss it. Or, looked at another way, if Jowett's translation had jived better with yours, it would've been a challenge to your "praxis over doxis" explanation regardless of whether Meletos was arguing in good faith or not. For what little it's worth, I find your explanation compelling, but once I ran across that passage I couldn't resist throwing it at you - I was bound to learn something interesting one way or the other.

    Thanks again for busting out the Plato! ;-)

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Doorbells_002_small

    thank you.

  • Comment on keshmeshi's answer…
    Icon_small

    All churches rely on people's desire for community. For many people, that's all churches are: a place to network and meet new people. But, in most churches, members aren't going to go crazy bringing a new person into the fold. They'll be friendly, introduce themselves, gradually make friends, just like in any other community organization.

    Mars Hill members deliberately go out to bars and other public places, recruit lonely people, and then practically refuse to let those people out of their sight. It's extremely creepy.

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Stroup_small

    And yet it is good to remember that references to the gods are not tantamount to what we would consider *belief* in the *existence* of gods. That's what's so tricky here. Orthopraxy is very difficult for the modern mind to grasp, but it is what best explains ancient religious thought.

    So maybe what's best to say is that although we don't have written evidence of widespread belief (esp among the literate classes), we *do* have reasonable evidence—literary and material—of very widespread religious *practice*. The point seems to be that *belief* was simply not very important—it is not anything people discuss or argue about in the writings we have—but the way in which one interacted with what were essentially state religious *was.*

    Ok, the passage you quote is...

    Oy. Ok, seriously making me bust out my Plato, huh?

    Ok. Your passage occurs at 18b-18c.

    The translation is horrible. Good lord! That's why. The Jowett translation dates from the late 19th century! Ok. Well, that explains quite a lot.

    So anyway. It is not a very good translation, but it comes from Ap. 18b-18c. The first bit is of course a reference to Aristophanes' humorous depiction of Sokrates in *Clouds*. What Jowett translates as "do not believe in the existence of" is not that in Greek at all.

    Will this work? Let's try it:

    οἱ γὰρ ἀκούοντες ἡγοῦνται τοὺς ταῦτα ζητοῦντας οὐδὲ θεοὺς νομίζειν.

    Ok. This reads "for those hearing [M's charge] suppose that those searching after such things [scientific knowledge] do not "nomizein" the gods."

    So the verb—it's an accusative—"nomizein" is what J translates as "believe in the existence of." This is highly problematic, because that's not what the verb means at all. The verb is related to the noun "nomos," which can mean "law" or "custom" or such.

    As such, "nomizein" can mean a lot of things: it can mean: to practice, to use customarily, to hold as a custom, to be used to, to be accustomed to, to hold in honor (in one's actions), and so on. Do you see the emphasis on *action* and not belief? That's because "belief" is not a primary meaning of this word, because it is not a primary concern of the Athenians.

    Now, there is one use of "nomizein," when it takes an accusative and an infinitive, which may mean "to believe THAT." But you'd need a second infinitive, and it's not there. It is true that you needn't use an infinitive of the "to be" verb if the meaning is obvious, but it's also true that "nomizein," when it means "to believe THAT" never (that I could find) appears with an implied or expressed "to be" verb, because that sense of "believe that s.t. is" is not a Greek one. You can believe that you are being ruled; you can believe that the army is advancing; you can believe that the sky is falling. In Greek, the sentiment "to believe that the gods are" is nonsensical. You can write it, grammatically speaking, but it makes no sense in an Attic context.

    The idea that this is a charge of atheism, or a refusal to "believe in" the gods is one inspired wholly by a Christian mindset, I fear. Lots to do with what Sokrates DID, but nothing about what he did or did not "believe."

    Meletos' charge was trumped up and ridiculous anyway. No one cared about the "strange gods" (physics and science) Sokrates recognized; they were pissed off because he was privately educating a bunch of young aristocrats.

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Davidclose2_small

    Thanks, Myrna. The Egyptology tidbit made me crack a smile. (Civil servants, we're all just dreamers at heart.)

    And this is sort of a delayed reaction, but ACK! Robarts ...

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Cateyes_small

    Well, if you graduated from Toronto with "high distinction" you definitely earned it. Remember, there's no grade inflation at U of T unlike at most American universities. So, you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Don't sell your accomplishments short!

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Davidclose2_small

    Oh, I guess I can't? Oh well! At least I owned up to it? :P

  • Comment on SCStroup's answer…
    Davidclose2_small

    Thanks, Myrna! I really appreciate the thoughtful answer. The Toronto angle is a plus :)

    (I did get a 90 here and there at U of T, but my mistake: I graduated with "high distinction" v. "distinction." My actual average works out to just "cum laude" according to most US standards ... how embarrassing! I'll ... probably amend that one.)